越南在古代做過大帝國嗎？
Did ancient Vietnam ever have any sort of large empire?
譯文簡介
網(wǎng)友：有些人可能會(huì)提到國王祿續(xù)建立的赤鬼王國(公元前2879-2524年)，在書面記錄中描述了它的規(guī)模：不幸的是，這是傳說，而不是真實(shí)的。沒有證據(jù)表明赤鬼王國的存在或者有這么大。最多，幾個(gè)世紀(jì)后寫的記錄是指整個(gè)百越部落。事實(shí)上，那些部落從未形成一個(gè)統(tǒng)一的國家。
正文翻譯
Tim Tran
Some may refer to the kingdom of Xích Qu? (2879–2524 BCE) established by King Kinh D??ng, in which written records described it of this size:
有些人可能會(huì)提到國王祿續(xù)建立的赤鬼王國(公元前2879-2524年)，在書面記錄中描述了它的規(guī)模:
Some may refer to the kingdom of Xích Qu? (2879–2524 BCE) established by King Kinh D??ng, in which written records described it of this size:
有些人可能會(huì)提到國王祿續(xù)建立的赤鬼王國(公元前2879-2524年)，在書面記錄中描述了它的規(guī)模:
Unfortunately, this is legendary, and not real. There is no evidence of Xích Qu?’s existence or being this big. At most, the records written centuries later were referring to the Baiyue tribes as a whole. In reality, those tribes never formed a united nation.
Some may refer to the kingdom of V?n Lang
established by L?c Long Quan, in which written records described it of this size:
不幸的是，這是傳說，而不是真實(shí)的。沒有證據(jù)表明赤鬼王國的存在或者有這么大。最多，幾個(gè)世紀(jì)后寫的記錄是指整個(gè)百越部落。事實(shí)上，那些部落從未形成一個(gè)統(tǒng)一的國家。
有些人可能會(huì)提到文朗王國，由雒龍君建立，在書面記錄中描述了它的大小:
Some may refer to the kingdom of V?n Lang
established by L?c Long Quan, in which written records described it of this size:
不幸的是，這是傳說，而不是真實(shí)的。沒有證據(jù)表明赤鬼王國的存在或者有這么大。最多，幾個(gè)世紀(jì)后寫的記錄是指整個(gè)百越部落。事實(shí)上，那些部落從未形成一個(gè)統(tǒng)一的國家。
有些人可能會(huì)提到文朗王國，由雒龍君建立，在書面記錄中描述了它的大小:
Unfortunately, this is also legendary, and not real, with the same basis as Xích Qu?’s. However, it was plausible that the kingdom of V?n Lang was real, just not this big, and was ruled by the L?c Vi?t, of whom China and Vietnam have differing opinions on its location. According to official Vietnamese history, this was its actual size:
不幸的是，這也是傳說，而不是真實(shí)的，與赤鬼王國的基本盤差不多。然而，文朗王國是真實(shí)的，只是沒有這么大，并且由L?c Vi?t統(tǒng)治，中國和越南對(duì)其位置有不同的意見。根據(jù)越南官方歷史，這是它的實(shí)際大小:
Some may refer to the state of Nanyue (204–111 BCE) established by Zhao Tuo, which became independent from the Qin empire. At its peak, this was the size:
有些人可能會(huì)提到趙佗建立的南越國(公元前204年至公元前111年)，它從秦朝帝國中獨(dú)立出來。在巔峰時(shí)期，它的規(guī)模是這樣的:
However, whether Nanyue was a Chinese or Vietnamese state is still controversial. According to both modern Chinese and Vietnamese recognitions, Nanyue was a Chinese state that ruled the land of Vietnam, and was a conqueror that began the eras of Chinese domination. So no, this was not a Vietnamese state.
The largest empire Vietnam had ever become with clear historical records and effectively belonged to Vietnam was the empire of ??i Nam (1839–1945), with the size that included parts of modern-day Laos and Cambodia:
然而，南越是中國還是越南的一個(gè)州仍然有爭議。根據(jù)現(xiàn)代中國人和越南人的認(rèn)知，南越是一個(gè)統(tǒng)治越南土地的中國國家，是一個(gè)開啟了中國統(tǒng)治時(shí)代的征服者。所以不，這不是一個(gè)越南國家。
根據(jù)明確的歷史記錄，越南成為的最大帝國實(shí)際上屬于越南的是大南帝國(1839-1945)，其疆域包括今天老撾和柬埔寨的部分地區(qū):
The largest empire Vietnam had ever become with clear historical records and effectively belonged to Vietnam was the empire of ??i Nam (1839–1945), with the size that included parts of modern-day Laos and Cambodia:
然而，南越是中國還是越南的一個(gè)州仍然有爭議。根據(jù)現(xiàn)代中國人和越南人的認(rèn)知，南越是一個(gè)統(tǒng)治越南土地的中國國家，是一個(gè)開啟了中國統(tǒng)治時(shí)代的征服者。所以不，這不是一個(gè)越南國家。
根據(jù)明確的歷史記錄，越南成為的最大帝國實(shí)際上屬于越南的是大南帝國(1839-1945)，其疆域包括今天老撾和柬埔寨的部分地區(qū):
During Emperor Minh M?ng of Nguy?n dynasty, Vietnam reached its peak in physical size, swallowing up most of Cambodia, half of Laos, with vassalage from the Lao kingdom of Champasak and Jrai chiefdoms in modern-day Central Vietnam.
在Nguy?n王朝的明明命帝時(shí)期，越南的疆域達(dá)到了頂峰，吞并了柬埔寨的大部分，老撾的一半領(lǐng)土，這些領(lǐng)土原本屬于占巴塞的老撾王國；以及征服了今天越南中部的杰萊酋長領(lǐng)地。
（譯注：占巴塞(Champasak)曾經(jīng)是老撾王國的首都，是一座只有一條道路的慵懶城鎮(zhèn)。）
在Nguy?n王朝的明明命帝時(shí)期，越南的疆域達(dá)到了頂峰，吞并了柬埔寨的大部分，老撾的一半領(lǐng)土，這些領(lǐng)土原本屬于占巴塞的老撾王國；以及征服了今天越南中部的杰萊酋長領(lǐng)地。
（譯注：占巴塞(Champasak)曾經(jīng)是老撾王國的首都，是一座只有一條道路的慵懶城鎮(zhèn)。）
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It is interesting that the ancient Korean mythology and history of Koreans are even more exaggerated than those of Vietnam. They believe that the territories north of the Yangtze River, including Manchuria in northeastern China, were part of the ancient Korean Empire. Their mythological end of the Baekje Ocean Empire included all the wealthy regions of eastern China, as well as islands such as Vietnam, the Philippines, and Indonesia.
有趣的是，韓國人的古代朝鮮神話和歷史甚至比越南還要夸張。他們認(rèn)為長江以北的地區(qū)，包括中國東北的滿洲，都是古代朝鮮帝國的一部分。他們神話般的百濟(jì)海洋帝國甚至包括中國東部所有的富裕地區(qū)，以及越南、菲律賓和印度尼西亞等島嶼。
In ancient times, South Korea ruled the area north of the Yangtze River, Vietnam ruled the area south of the Yangtze River, and China was located below the surface of the Yangtze River.
古代韓國統(tǒng)治長江以北地區(qū)，越南統(tǒng)治長江以南地區(qū)，中國位于長江水面之下。
In both Vietnamese and Chinese history, Korea often refer to as a tributary country
在越南和中國歷史上，韓國經(jīng)常被稱為附屬國；
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Charliechinading
According to the claims of Vietnamese and Korean nationalists, ancient China actually did not exist. South Korea claimed that the land north of the ancient Yangtze River was Korean land, while Vietnam claimed that the land south of the Yangtze River was Vietnamese land. Chinese people could only live and swim in the Yangtze River
按照越南和韓國民族主義者的說法，古代中國其實(shí)并不存在。韓國聲稱古長江以北的土地是韓國土地，越南聲稱長江以南的土地是越南土地。中國人只能在長江中生活和游泳；
Sean Landy ??????? ???? 陸
什么樣的國家會(huì)自稱為紅鬼？
赤鬼 in this case is referring to the south. 赤 is synonymous with 朱, and 朱鬼 refers to the star Theta Cancri in the Twenty-Eight Mansions 二十八宿.
赤鬼這里指的是南方。赤是朱的同義詞，以及朱鬼指的是鬼宿一（恒星），是二十八宿。
根據(jù)中國天文學(xué)，鬼宿一在南方。
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According to China's five elements culture; The south represents fire, the color is red, and the animal represented is phoenix.
根據(jù)中國的五行文化；南方代表火，顏色是紅色，代表的動(dòng)物是鳳凰。
Sean Landy ??????? ???? 陸
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I mean, normal ancient ppl would always name themselves as “centre”, right?
什么樣的人會(huì)稱自己為“南方”？
我的意思是，正常的古代人總是稱自己為“中心”，對(duì)嗎？
Vietnam has always referred to itself as south. An Nam, ??i Nam, nam tri?u, nam qu?c, nam ??, Vi?t Nam. Since its inception, it has always put itself as south of China.
越南一直稱自己為南方。安南，大南，nam tri?u（越南南北朝）, 廣南, nam ??, 越南。自成立以來，它一直把自己作為中國的南方。
Sean Landy ??????? ???? 陸
Actually An Nam is not a Vietnamese word.
An Dong/Peace East is Korea, An Nam/Peace South is Vietnam, An xi/Peace West is xinjang.
All based on a Chinese vassal-naming system, not a name by Vietnam themselves.
不是這樣的。
實(shí)際上，Nam不是一個(gè)越南語單詞。
安東（和平東方）是朝鮮，安南（和平南方）是越南，安西（和平西方）是新疆。
所有這些都是基于中國的封臣命名系統(tǒng)，而不是越南自己起的名字。
True, but Vietnamese have kept that name well until the 20th century so.
Aside from An Nam, the other names are all south-related.
沒錯(cuò)，但是越南人在20世紀(jì)之前一直沿用這個(gè)名字。
除了安南，其他的名字都和南方有關(guān)。
Wait, we called ourselves Nam qu?c? Under whose reign was this title used ? I’m aware that Thiên Nam was occassionally used but nam qu?c? Not one i’ve heard of.
等等，我們自稱廣南（nam qu?c）？這個(gè)頭銜是在誰的統(tǒng)治下使用的？我知道Thiên Nam偶爾會(huì)被使用，但是廣南？我沒聽說過。
If you read Vietnamese royal decree written under French rule, you may see the term “Nam tri?u” (南朝, Southern dynasty)
如果你閱讀法國統(tǒng)治下的越南皇家法令，你可能會(huì)看到“廣南”一詞(南朝)
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Probably in the same way as Japan refers to itself directionally based on China's reference.
大概和日本以中國為參照物定向指自己一樣。
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Japan is the land having the root from the sun.
日本是一個(gè)根源于太陽的國家。
Sean Landy ??????? ???? 陸
So their name is actually a given name from Chinese culture.
Actually, word “Japan” in Chinese means “sun’s root”. and Korea(Chosam) means “sun rising”.
all based on a Chinese centre view.
那就更搞笑了，因?yàn)槿照Z其實(shí)沒有文字系統(tǒng)。
所以他們的名字實(shí)際上根植于中國文化。
實(shí)際上，“日本”在中文里是“太陽的起源地”的意思。而韓國/朝鮮(Chosam)的意思是“太陽升起地”。
所有這些都基于中國為中心觀點(diǎn)。
Andy
There is nothing called Chinese 2000 years ago.
Remember the people in the south of China today are genetically different from the Han people from the North China.
Those people in the South belong to the old Kingdom more than 2000 year ago, and Vietnamese are part of that Kingdom.
So don’t try to brainwash people that South China people today were Chinese 2000 years ago.
And don’t just simply deny the xich Quy Kingdom.
2000年前沒有什么叫中文的。
記住今天中國南方的人在基因上不同于中國北方的漢族人。
南方的那些人屬于2000多年前的舊王國，越南人是那個(gè)王國的一部分。
所以不要試圖給人洗腦說今天的華南人是2000年前的中國人。
也不要只是簡單的否定赤鬼王國。
If there is nothing called Chinese 2000 years ago, then there is nothing called Vietnamese 2000 years ago either. You say there's genetic differences between north and south China, but why not also say there's genetic differences between north and south Vietnam? Let’s not act like Vietnamese genetics stayed the same for centuries.
I'm not denying it. It's literally pure fiction. Unless you can give me historical records of that time that can prove its existence. You can't, because the name and concept of Xích Qu? only appeared post-Tang dynasty, after Vietnam gained independence.
如果2000年前沒有叫中文的，那么2000年前也沒有叫越南語的。你說中國北方和南方有基因差異，但是為什么不說越南北方和南方有基因差異呢？我們不要表現(xiàn)得好像越南人的基因幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來都沒變一樣。
我不否認(rèn)赤鬼國完全是虛構(gòu)的。丹除非你能給我能證明它存在的那個(gè)時(shí)間的歷史記錄。不能吧，因?yàn)槌喙韲@個(gè)名字和概念是唐朝以后才出現(xiàn)的，在越獨(dú)立之后。
But their were Chinese dynasties..
但是他們是中國的朝代;
麗麗 朱
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Before the Han Dynasty, there was no "Han nationality".
Let me make it clearer. If you look at the territory of the Han Dynasty, everyone in the territory is a founding member of the "Han nationality". Do you understand?
我猜你是越南人，你經(jīng)常誤解“漢”的概念。
漢朝以前，沒有“漢族”。
讓我說得更清楚些。如果你看漢朝的疆域，疆域內(nèi)的每個(gè)人都是“漢民族”的創(chuàng)始成員。你明白嗎？
Firstly, the population was migratory until the emergence of a country and civilization. The map of the Qin Empire already included most of today's land in China, and the territory during the Han and Tang dynasties was much larger than today. Secondly, China is a civilization disguised as a nation. Our country has been maintained through cultural identity since the beginning, and in fact, there are no pure blood Han people. Similarly, in Italy, you cannot find pure blood Romans. We have been continuously integrating for five thousand years until today. My mother is Manchu and my father is Han, which does not affect my recognition as a member of the Chinese nation
首先，在一個(gè)國家和文明出現(xiàn)之前，人口是流動(dòng)的。秦帝國的版圖已經(jīng)包括了今天中國的大部分土地，漢唐時(shí)期的疆域比今天大得多。其次，中國是一個(gè)偽裝成國家的文明。我們國家從一開始就是通過文化認(rèn)同來維持的，事實(shí)上也沒有純血統(tǒng)的漢人。同樣，在意大利，你也找不到純血統(tǒng)的羅馬人。五千年來我們一直在不斷融合，直到今天。我母親是滿族，我父親是漢族，這不影響我對(duì)自己是中華民族一員的認(rèn)同；
The Vietnamese received so much genetic impact from the Han Chinese over the course of 2000 years (with half of that being spent as a literal part of China), the Vietnamese hardly phenotypically or culturally resemble their Hoabinhian ancestors at all. They are the Southeast Asian ethnic group with by far the most Northeast Asian ancestry, but the Vietnamese continue to speak an Austroasiatic language which is very Southeast Asian
在2000多年的時(shí)間里，越南人從漢族人那里接受了如此多的基因影響(其中一半時(shí)間是作為中國的一部分度過的)，越南人在表型上或文化上都很難與他們的和平文化（Hoabinhian）祖先相似。他們是東南亞的一個(gè)族群，有著最多的東北亞血統(tǒng)，但是越南人繼續(xù)說一種非常東南亞化的澳亞語系（南亞語系）；
（譯注：和平文化(英語：Hoabinhian Culture)指的是東南亞中石器時(shí)代至新石器時(shí)代早期的文化。）
Adam Dinh
Mongolian could be a Chinese Yuan dynasty, so Chinese could be a Vietnamese Trieu Da(Zhao Tuo) dynasty. Ancient Nanyue Kingdom
蒙古人可以是中國的元朝，所以漢人在越南建立Trieu Da(趙佗)南越王朝可以是古代越南人的王國；
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Well, the Yuan was set up as a Chinese style administrative dynasty, moved its capital from Mongolia to Beijing and claimed succession from previous Chinese dynasties.
Did Nanyue have anything in common or lixage with previous Vietnamese geopolitical entities? (This is a genuine question)
嗯，元朝建立了一個(gè)中國式的行政王朝，把首都從蒙古遷到北京，并聲稱繼承了中國以前的王朝。
南越和以前的越南地緣政治實(shí)體有什么共同之處或聯(lián)系嗎？(這是問題的真正之處)；
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Some argue that the Zhao rulers of Nanyue adopted Baiyue customs as well as marrying Baiyue wives
有人認(rèn)為，南越的趙統(tǒng)治者除了娶百越妻子外，還采用了百越習(xí)俗；
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Well, I don't think Yuan is a Chinese dynasty
嗯，我不認(rèn)為元朝是一個(gè)中國王朝；
It's like the ancient Romans called the barbarians in the north Germanic.
So two thousand years later, people there imagined that two thousand years ago, there was a country called Germanic in the north of the Roman Empire, and its area was the same as all the territories in the north of the Roman Empire.
If you are German, you may say that my ancestors were indeed in the north of ancient Rome.
But the Vietnamese are "Eskimos". They are outside of "Germanic".
The abbreviation of Guangdong Province in China is "Yue". The country called "Yue" in ancient China is in central China. As they said, their king is a descendant of the Zhou emperor of China.
As agricultural technology developed, the indigenous people in southern China walked out of the jungle and changed from hunting to farmers, and they became Han people. If there really was a "Baiyue Kingdom" as you imagined, then their descendants would also be southern Chinese, not Vietnamese. . .
就像古羅馬人把北方的蠻族稱為日耳曼人一樣。
于是兩千年后，那里的人們想象著兩千年前，羅馬帝國北部有一個(gè)叫日耳曼的國家，它的面積和羅馬帝國北部的所有領(lǐng)土一樣。
如果你是德國人，你可能會(huì)說我的祖先確實(shí)在古羅馬的北方。
但是越南人是“愛斯基摩人”。他們在“日耳曼”之外。
中國廣東省的簡稱是“粵”。中國古代稱為“越”的國家在中國中部。正如他們所說，他們的國王是中國周王的后裔。
隨著農(nóng)業(yè)技術(shù)的發(fā)展，中國南方的土著走出了叢林，從狩獵變成了農(nóng)民，他們變成了漢人。如果真的有你想象中的“百越王國”，那么他們的后代也應(yīng)該是南方華人，而不是越南人。